Today’s Flight Plan
When you first find out you want to fly, where do you turn? Yes, you can go to the local airport and talk to someone. That alone can be daunting. Who do you trust with aviation career advice? Someone you don’t know or trust?
We talk to Mike Rushforth, airline pilot, entreprenuer and aviation nutjob. Mike is all about sharing his passion for aviation. He’s started up a company, Sendaero, that lines up prospective pilots with an aviation career mentor. Not only that, you can fly online with a real flight instructor with a home simulator.
Mike is a top notch guy with a lot of bright ideas and a passion for aviation. We hope you enjoy this Hangar Talk episode with Mike and Sendaero!
Mike Rushforth of Sendaero
Major thanks to the amazing Angle of Attack Crew for all their hard work over the years. Our team works incredibly hard, and they’re very passionate about what they do.
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Blazing your path in the skies. This is AviatorCast episode 78
Calling all aviators, pilots, flight sim enthusiasts and aviation lovers, you’ve landed at AviatorCast! Join us weekly in our efforts to become better masters of the air through interviews, refreshers, lessons, training topics, simulator set-up, hangar talk, news and more! Buckle up and prepare yourself for this week’s episode of AviatorCast! Preflight complete, fuel on board and flight plan filed. Let’s kick the tires and light the fires! Here’s your humble host, Chris Palmer!
Chris: Welcome, welcome, welcome aviators. You’ve landed at AviatorCast. My name is Chris Palmer. There is always a small piece of my heart and mind that is in another place. This place is among the clouds and wisps of the sky. Yes, more often than not, I would rather be flying. That’s who I am, it’s an integral part of me.
So welcome to this, the 78th episode of AviatorCast. It is my pleasure to have you here week after week and we have another doozy for you this week. So if you haven’t been to AviatorCast before, AviatorCast is where we share our passion for aviation. Namely, we bring in inspiring aviators and interview them about their careers and specific things they’re working on or just talk to them about their stories. We gain insight into the flight community, whether that be in training in the military or airlines or whatever it is. We try to expand our minds about different types of flying and what that means for our type of flying. There is a lot to learn there. Maybe you are getting back into flying and you’re looking to bring that passion back, reignite that flame if you will. This is another thing that we do. Or maybe you want to fly, you’ve never been into flying before and you’re trying to get the courage or just the knowledge to do it, we do that as well, and we also talk a whole lot about flight training and flight simulation and a broad range of topics.
On today’s episode, we talk to Mike Rushforth. Mike is an airline pilot for several years now. He’s a younger guy. And he’s also started a company called Sendaero. Sendaero is a really cool new tool where you can get lined up with a mentor and you can even fly online virtually with a real life CFI, certified flight instructor. So Mike is a top-notch guy, flies for a major US airline, and this is an awesome conversation that we’re going to have with him. But before we do that, as always, I read a review from you, one of the listeners on the show and this one comes all the way from Switzerland. It comes from BigG_vs.
He says “Best aviation podcast,” gives us five stars. He says “This is the best aviation podcast for me. I’m always looking for a podcast about aviation to ease my frustration when I cannot fly. I have subscribed to a lot of podcasts in the last years but I always unsubscribe after a while except for the AviatorCast podcast. I’m always waiting for the new episode usually one per week. The aviation and simulation news are very interesting but the best part of the podcast are the hangar talks which are the interviews with pilots, developers, etc. Super cool stories where I discover countless new things and get my fix on aviation when I’m bored at the office.”
So thanks BigG_vs. Really appreciate it. As many of you know, those that I read your review on the show, I will send you a free AviatorCast t-shirt, so yes, I will send that even all the way to Switzerland to you for leaving this review. I really appreciate it. These are cool t-shirts guys, say “Fly or Die” on them, they have a corsair, and that’s how I feel. Fly or die. So really looking forward to this show with Mike. So let’s get right into it. Let’s not delay. We may as well just jump right into the cockpit here and get going. So here is hangar talk with Mike Rushforth of Sendaero, and a majorly cool airline pilot.
Now, a special hangar talk segment…
Chris: Alright everybody. We are honored to have a very special guest with us today, a friend of mine, Mike Rushforth. How you doing Mike?
Mike: Doing well. It’s great to be here Chris.
Chris: Yeah. It’s good to have you. We’ve known each other for a while now, and you have something cool we’re going to talk about today, but other than that, you’re just another passionate aviator like myself so let’s kind of start off how we start off every hangar talk episode, and tell us how you fell in love with aviation.
Mike: Well, my start is pretty similar to a lot of the other guests here, and on that note, I’ve been listening for a while, for a little over a year, maybe close to a year and a half, so I’ve seen a lot of AviatorCast and it’s been wonderful. As far as how I got in aviation, it’s kind of one of those things where you can’t really remember when it started but it just, from my earliest memories, I can remember just loving airplanes. I think my dad, he was kind of the one who injected a lot of it into me, taking me to airshows as a kid.
One big thing was that he had a flight simulator. In 1989, he had a little flight simulator on MS-DOS. It was called F-15 Strike Eagle and I remember he would play that one thing with one of these old school joysticks and I mean, just the textures on it were just one color. I remember as a little kid I was just enamored with that, I wanted to play it so bad, I would always bug him to play it. Computers were pretty sensitive back then so having a 5-year-old come on that was a little much. But anyways he would let me play on it and that’s kind of where I fell in love with aviation, was actually through flight simulators, going to airshows.
And I remember playing with micromachines, and I was very particular about how accurate the micromachines looked. They had to look accurate to me because you get some other airplane toy… and I wasn’t a big model guy or anything like that but I was big about the micromachines. I remember having a little military airplane encyclopedia which I would just read through that and talk about at 16, at 15, and all the armament that it could carry and all the limitations of each aircraft and stuff so I remember studying that thing pretty in-depth.
And so yeah, I actually didn’t do much flying as a young kid. I didn’t really actually take my first flight until I was 18, and that was through a friend, that Church, who kind of took me under his wings so to speak and for some reason he asked me what I wanted to do with my life and I told him I wanted to be a pilot which was funny because at that time, I wasn’t focused on it whatsoever and I didn’t even think it was a realistic goal, but he’s like “Well, I happen to be a pilot and I have an airplane out here in Chino, in California, would you like to go fly?” and I’m like “Heck yeah, I’d go fly with you.”
So yeah, he went and took me up and I was just, I fell in love right there because just watching him and seeing his, I think I was very maybe a little overwhelmed watching him with all his multitasking skills and everything that he was able to do with talking on the radios and all that kind of stuff. So I think from then on, it still took a few years after that to where I actually decided to become a pilot, but that was kind of the starting point when I actually got in an airplane.
Chris: That’s so cool. You know, recently, just going back to kind of your childhood memories of micromachines and things like that. So just a small admission, I’ve seen Star Wars four times already. I’m probably going to go a fifth time just because now, like I had this little punch card at a little theatre and now I get a free Star Wars movie a fifth time and probably nap through it or something. But anyway, I noticed the last few weeks, because the movie was so good and I think about it every now and again, I noticed that even like that X-Wing was a connection to aviation for me as a young kid. So those things definitely make a difference and like you said, like the micromachines and I built some models when I was little, and so in thinking about that myself, I look back and yeah, I make those connectiolike that X-Wing was a connection to aviation for me as a young kid. So those things definitely make a difference and like you said, like the micromachines and I built some models when I was little, and so in thinking about that myself, I look back and yeah, I make those connections so that’s really cool.
Mike: Well and I remember I actually had an X-Wing micromachine so I remember watching Star Wars as a kid and flying it around and stuff and it was really fun.
Chris: The good old days of no worries. But now we get to fly airplanes for real even though we’re not as cool as Poe Dameron. So from there, you got the bug of aviation. So where did your training go from there? How did you decide where to go to school. Take us through that thought process and even through the process of gaining your ratings and your time.
Mike: Yeah. So after I took that flight with my friend Fred, I actually went and did some missionary work out in Guatemala and stuff and even after I came back from that, I still didn’t know what I wanted to do. And I remember, me and my friend started a non-profit organization. We flew down to Guatemala, we flew back, and we were on a layover in Dallas. I distinctly remember this experience because we got stuck for 36 hours in DFW, and I remember, my friend was really frustrated by the experience but I actually realized how much I liked it. It was kind of cool just being stuck in the airport, and actually a tornado hit the airport and so it shut everything down in the middle of the night, they had the sirens running and we had to go to the center of the airport because it’s all windows around the airport, so they had to bring us into the center.
And I remember just telling my buddy there, I’m like “You know what? I’ve always loved airplanes, I’ve always loved aviation. And just seeing these pilots walk around, it’s so cool man.” I have been thinking about joining this flight school out where I live out in Utah and he just said “Yeah man. Just do it.” I was like “Okay. I’ll do it.” And so literally, I got home, two days later, I went out and I went down to the school and I signed up. Didn’t know what I was getting myself into really. There really wasn’t much planning involved in it but everything just fell together. So I went to a university out in Utah and just signed up, went to the counselor there and started school like a week or two later and it was awesome.
Chris: You know, if I can interrupt, I think that’s a really good lesson there because if you think about the way that you did it and it’s actually the way that a lot people eventually have to do it is you just went and did it and you took the dive and your intention was there and you just started taking the steps to achieve that dream and I think a lot of people get bogged down in what those steps are and what the best school is and this and that and they never actually do it. And so I think it’s cool that you’re like “Yeah. I’m just gonna go do it.” So anyway…
Mike: Yeah. Absolutely. The story is a little bit ironic because of what I’m looking to do now. I’m hoping to help prepare students for their future in aviation and stuff but for me, yes, at some point, it just takes you to just sit down and set that intention of “I’m going to go do this and whatever it takes to get to that point, I’ll do whatever it takes.” And so that’s just what I did. It was a really simple intention that I said.
So I went on from there and I just basically started just going to ground school, got my private there, went on to instrument. And in that process, I was very lucky. I had the best instructors. My first instructor, he was just very meticulous. He was very, very safety-oriented and we got along really well. I switched instructors for instrument. Actually, I was waiting for him to get his CFII so he could teach me instrument but he didn’t get to that point yet. So, I switched instructors at instrument. I actually stuck with that instructor from instrument all the way through my multiengine ratings, commercial ratings, and CFIs. So I spent quite a bit of time with him and we remain very good friends to this day. I had a lot of great experiences during that training process.
Chris: Great. Great.
Mike: Did all my ratings there at that school in Utah and I started teaching there for a short time, and then decided that I wanted to change the scenery. We operated in a class Delta airport with Salt Lake up north just a little bit. But I was just a little bit, I don’t want to say bored but I guess I was a little bit bored. I think I wanted to just see something new. I wanted to go get some actual instrument time flying in the clouds. So I just searched as hard as I could and I actually ended up landing up a flight instructor job out in California out at Torrance Airport. I think that was kind of where I saw a lot of my skills come together.
Like I said, in Utah, it was kind of difficult sometimes to get the actual instrument just because of elevation and stuff and the icing conditions. So going out to California was a real big change with that because I got to fly single pilot IFR in a Cessna-172, all analog instruments, and fly approaches down to minimums by myself. I had a student that was, he was a guy who was a partner of a law firm out in Camarillo and so I would go fly out and meet him because he was in such a time crunch.
Anyways, those experiences of flying by myself, in weather, those experiences were just so incredible. I’d get down on the ground just with my heart punding and just so excited that I can fly into clouds and get this plane up and get it down in that kind of weather. It was a great environment to increase my skills and to see the culmination of my skills I guess is better say it that way.
Chris: I’m a huge believer in actual instrument flying and obviously you got to do the precautions and everything you need to do. By the end of the day, the airplanes are made to fly in those conditions and some of my most memorable pilot memories are of instrument conditions and they’re just so vivid. I go back to them and I daydream about them. It’s great stuff. So yeah, I think that’s where a lot of people kind of come full circle when they start to do things like that.
Mike: Yeah. It was really cool. Just really cool experience flying those kind of approaches and interacting with ATC. It’s such a dense airspace and the ability to teach out there too. To be setting off my students in and out of a Class Delta airport was not that scary sometimes, but I don’t know if your listeners know but as a flight instructor, you sign your students off for solo flights. So you’d just send them off and they go fly by themselves still as a student very often. So to send them off into California with all that airspace was sometimes a little bit more nerve-wracking than just doing it up in Utah. They just need to get out of this airspace so they could keep going and you just hope they don’t get lost. But in California man, they really had to be on their game. They had to be ready. They had to know how to navigate that airspace and talk to air traffic control and all that stuff.
Chris: Yeah. You can’t fake your communication skills there. I mean, it’s just a steep learning curve and something that is more required in that airspace than it is in other places. So take us from there. You instructed in Utah, you went back to California and instructed, sounds like less at a school level and more as an FBO type of thing, and then you eventually transitioned to the airlines right?
Mike: Yes. And in between that, after teaching out in California, I actually got a job for a short time chasing UAV predator drones in the high desert in California. It was so cool man. And I never did the military thing but that kind of satisfied my curiosity for the military and General Atomics has a couple of facilities in between Apple Valley, or in between Victorville and Palmdale out there in California. That was just so fun. Basically, these UAV predator drones are doing their training, they’re doing their ops checks for new aircraft and all that stuff. So we would just fly and follow them. Everywhere they went, we’d fly formation with them and we’d be in communication with the pilots on the ground. They’re just sitting in a little trailer and it was really, really cool.
The funnest part of that job was dropping them off in the restricted areas and picking them up out of the restricted areas. So picking them up was really cool because you’d get on with the military controllers in the restricted areas, start talking to them and they would start giving you vectors to where the drone was and you would be looking for it. And there are two guys in the cockpit. We just flew Cessna-172s, 182s, and you start looking for them. And it was just cool. You’d punch up the throttle once you spotted them and you’d just go join up with them.
Chris: Wow. That’s neat.
Mike: Yeah. So I got some a little bit of formation skills there and shortly after that, I scored my first job at Scenic Airlines out in Vegas, I guess they’re based out of Boulder now, flying Twin Otters, so doing tours over the Grand Canyon and that was really cool. I think that was kind of my bush experience. I know you get to brag about all your bush experiences which are super cool up in Alaska…
Chris: I don’t have a ton of them but…
Mike: Well I haven’t had that. I’ve never been up there and I haven’t had that experience but that was kind of my bush experience.
Chris: Gotcha. I think it counts.
Mike: So, saw 50-knot crosswinds trying to come to land there. It was all VFR. We didn’t do too much IFR even though we were trained to do it. But usually it’s not too enjoyable for the passengers.
Chris: Yeah. I mean, the idea is kind of having a scenic thing and if you’re just in the clouds, it just makes a lot of sense.
Mike: So yeah, that was a really good time and I was only there for 5 or 6 months, got enough hours really
quickly to go on to Express Jet and that was my first regional airline and first jet job flying the ERJ-145. I spent four years there, had a lot of good experiences, and now I’m here with a major US carrier, flying the Airbus A320 series and I’ve been here for about six months.
Chris: Cool. Yeah I remember you going through your training. In fact, you were supposed to come to Oshkosh and bunk up with me and my boys but you got your training call for this airline and you’re like “I’m sorry man but I’ve just got to go.” I’m like “I get it. Just ditch me. You have to do it.”
Mike: I know. I had my ticket and everything, so I really, really was going to go but airline training is a couple months and I knew it was going to be quite a bit of work. I was still trying to figure out if there is a way I could still make out to Oshkosh, because I was “maybe I can just make it for the weekend” but I was bummed that that didn’t work out because we didn’t get to meet.
Chris: So since it fresh in your recent memory, give our listeners an idea of what it’s like to go through airline training for a major airline for the first time. We get some airline pilots on this show that have been at the airlines for years and years or maybe they’re even retired, but you just went through it. So give us an idea of what the process is like.
Mike: Sure yeah. Basically it lasts about two months, the entire training process and maybe even a little longer than that depending upon the airline’s resources. Basically you start out in a ground school just like you would even as a private pilot. Started it out in a ground school and that lasted 3-1/2 weeks and they go over everything, I mean everything from… the first week, they’re probably focusing a lot on that airline’s benefits. They’re talking about human resources-type things, man. Then they kind of go, sort to get into the specific airline procedures. So this is something that is always pretty interesting to me is that every airline does things their own way. And basically when they go through the process to become an airline, they’ve got to come up with an op-spec, that’s what it’s called, operation specifications.
And so they develop all their procedures that basically, it’s their bible of how they operate. So, go through all that, you learn that for probably another week, and then you get into aircraft systems. And that’s kind of the fun part for me, was getting into the systems of the Airbus and figuring out how the fly-by wire system works and all that kind of stuff. And this was a little bit different for me this time, was going through a systems class entirely, well I’d say probably 75% of it was computer-based training. So Airbus has their training program and we would just do it on the computer and then the next day we’d go over and review everything that everyone went over and they would kind of hit the specific point that they wanted to hit, that you needed to know for the test. And at the culmination of all that studying, you take a test, a systems test, which isn’t all that too difficult after you’re gone through all that training and paid attention. This is everyone’s job so everyone is working really hard on it.
And then after that, once ground school is over, you’ll go into the simulator portion. Actually, first is the FTD which is a flight training device which is basically just a mock-up of the airplane. They’re not simulators, I wouldn’t call them that because they don’t have any motion on them or anything. But they have all the switches. It will fly, I mean you can get it to take off and everything all the instruments work as if it was going through a flight and all the navigation and everything like that. However, it doesn’t have the motion on it.
Chris: And that’s mostly like procedures right? Like you’re not really doing flying-type things. You’re just going through checklists and procedures and things like that.
Mike: Exactly, yeah. So learning how the checklist go, flows. That’s where you kind of start memorizing those flows and a flow is basically just, before you actually accomplish your checklist, things should typically already be done by accomplishing a flow so I kind of would have my pattern of how things worked. Or they have the way they want you to do the flows and there are kind of patterns and I would use my own little memory techniques to remember how they land, like a pre-power up-flow. I remember it looked like a teardrop. So I’d always joke with my partner that “Okay ma, this is the gangster teardrop prepower upflow.” And that way, it was just totally out there and it’s stuck in my brain, and that way I was able to remember what it looked like, and just going through that little pattern to accomplish all those tasks.
Mike: Did that for a week. I think we had five sessions of that and after that we jumped into the actual simulator which was really cool because now, you’re able to get the airplane going and get it up in the air and you can pretty much get the plane up in the air and get it down to a landing and everything as far as all the procedures go but you haven’t kind of gotten that feel yet for how things feel and so now you get to jump in the real simulator and learn how the systems works, how the flight control laws work and see all the intricacies with Airbus because it’s quite a different philosophy with how they train and how the airplane works as opposed to what I’ve flown before.
So yeah, that was real fun. I love the flight simulator experience because it’s amazing to me that the FAA put so much trust, that they take the flight simulator, that I can basically go through all that training and then I can jump my first flight in the actual Airbuses with passengers in the back, with paying passengers like on a revenue flight. So the trust that they put into those flight simulators. It’s really amazing to me everytime I do it.
Chris: And they are just so accurate. I mean, when I went through a couple simulator locations, one of them being at Alaska Airlines, and this doesn’t have anything to do with Alaska Airlines, but they literally put in to the airplane the kind of electricity it takes even, like at the correct Hertz and everything. And so all the instruments and everything, I think on the 737, it’s 400 Hertz, around that range, and so they have everything, they have like transformers and everything in the base to make sure that everything in the airplane operates exactly how it does in the real airplane, or in the simulator it operates just like it does in the real airplane. So I mean, they go to great lengths. At the end of the day, it seems like an expensive endeavor but it ends up saving money in the long run because it’s better than each pilot having to fly a real airplane the pattern or whatever and do those things when that airplane could be used for a revenue flight.
Mike: Exactly. And that’s actually the difference. When I was training at Scenic Airlines, we actually did all the training in the actual aircraft so you’re right. You’re paying all the gas and the money and all that kind of stuff for all that training. So man, it probably saves them so much. I don’t have numbers or data on that but yeah, it’s a great experience.
Chris: So this may have come from Express Jet or it may have come from this new airline, but maybe this new airline is a better experience because it’s fresh in your memory but tell us what it was like to do your first ever 320 flight.
Mike: So mine was a little interesting. As awesome as a simulator is and as much I preach about how accurate they can be, and as much as you do as well, nothing can really prepare you for that it’s like to have all those senses there once you do your first takeoff in that kind of airplane. I mean, prior to that I’ve flown jets for four years but nothing can really prepare you for that. Yeah, you know all of the hard information of like how to fly this airplane, but you haven’t felt it yet and that’s just where I’m hoping that flight simulators can catch up with that but nothing can really replace that experience and I think Captain Knox when you interviewed him, he kind of talked about that. As cool as simulators are, nothing replaces that, actually doing it for the first time in an airplane.
So yeah, I think the takeoff, trying to get the feel for it, what the actual rate of rotation is in the real airplane as opposed to the simulator…
Chris: So wait, were you pilot-flying on your first ever leg?
Mike: No. And actually that’s a good point, I wasn’t and that’s a very good point. I had three legs my first day actually. They have a rule where they say that the captain does the first, he flies the first two legs and then you’ll be the non-flying pilot and run the radios and stuff like that. But that day, I got to do my first takeoff and landing in the airplane. And it’s funny because I was doing my first landing the Cincinnati and we had a bird strike on the approach. And we’re down pretty low, 700 feet, and I hear this huge thump right under my feet. And I’m like “What was that?” And he was like “Bird strike. We just had a bird strike.” And I’m like “Okay.” Just keep focusing on the landing. Just trying to focus. So it was pretty funny.
I’ve had some interesting experiences in my training where, when I was at Express Jet, I actually declared an emergency in my third day of training in the airplane. And that was a really cool experience to see the airline training process and how it can get someone brand new in their first jet up to speed and to be a useful crew member during an emergency. We actually declared the emergency, we had a bleed leak up at 35,000 feet and we had to divert. It was really cool. I got down to ground. I kind of have adrenaline rush and stuff but man, it was really satisfying to know that even me just being a brand new guy… The captain was joking that I probably felt more comfortable there than I would in the next year after flying there just because I was so fresh out of the simulator, having run all these emergencies just so many times. It was just really cool. It was a cool experience.
Chris: Yeah. I’ve definitely heard that before where airline pilots say that for years, they learn a ton about the airplane. Just everytime they go back to recurrent training, they’re learning more than they had before and especially with having experience under their belt, like things start to clock and make a lot of sense over time. So I’m sure that’ll happen to you too especially with how complicated the Airbus can be but sound like you’re off to a good start. That’s a plus.
Mike: I’m figuring it out. It’s a slow process and I’m a little bit more inpatient, it’s funny, I’m a little bit more inpatient through this experience than I was even at Express Jet because I’m like “I know how airline flying works” but even then man, in a new airplane, it’s a whole new ballgame. A new airline culture. You’ve got new procedures. It’s a very different experience.
Chris: Yeah for sure. So I’m not sure that you would accept the term overachiever but you being an airline pilot is not the only endeavor that you are currently up to. And so, this is actually how you and I got to know each other a little bit. You reached out to me. I think you had heard me on AviatorCast and you reached out to me and asked me a couple questions about a company that you were looking to start and you’ve talked a lot about simulation so far. So this company has a lot to do with simulation but it also has very much a lot to do with just who you are and your passion for aviation. And so with that set-up, why don’t you give everyone here an elevator pitch on what it is that you’re creating outside of your airline job?
Mike: Sure. I don’t know about the overachiever part but yeah, I’ll go with that I guess. I’ve started a company called Sendaero and what we focus on is aviation mentoring and pilot development. So if you think of those as two different areas, we’ll talk about aviation mentoring first.
Basically what we’re doing is we’re starting formal aviation mentorships for aspiring aviators. So basically if anyone is looking to become a pilot and they want to figure out what it takes to go through the process to become a pilot, we will connect them with a more experienced or professional pilot, depending upon what their goals are. And this takes place entirely online. We utilize a voice-over IP client called Discord and basically we can get in there and we can jump into different rooms and we can talk to each other just like me and you are talking to each other on the computer here.
So, it’s a really cool tool and basically what we have, we’re trying to focus on the entire spectrum of prospective pilots. So let’s say wants to be a general aviation pilot and they just want to see what it takes to go get a private pilot or they’re already in the process where they’re thinking about getting an instrument rating, and they just do it for recreation. We will connect them with a more experienced pilot who has experience in general aviation and basically they will spend a couple months with them, and the first two months of this is entirely free. So they can be considered complete after two months. And if they decide that they want to continue with the mentoring process, it’s 5 dollars a month and since all of our mentors are volunteers, we would never think of making money from that, so all of that money will go directly into an aviation scholarship. We’ll kind of announce the details of that later once things get rolling on that.
So like I said, the entire spectrum of prospective pilots. So my expertise obviously is kind of what it takes to become an airline pilot, that’s the process I’ve taken. So I have a team of volunteer airline pilots, volunteer corporate pilots, GA pilots who will meet and I can connect them with a prospective pilot depending upon what they want to do. So we’re currently in the process of mentorships with a few different prospective airline pilots. And so it’s been a really cool experience to see how beneficial this has been to them in terms of just empowering them with the knowledge that they need as far as the steps that they need to take to get there, to accomplish their goals. So basically it’s kind of an experience of goal setting. We’ll set goals with them.
With a particular student that I have, he’s working on his private pilot right now and he wants to be an airline pilot. But we’ve been able to sit down and just set goals and just stretch them to say hey, I think he’s been working on his private pilot for about a year now. He’s in school, he’s got a lot of different things going on and I’ve just been trying to help him focus on what it takes to get that done and to get the process moving. So it’s been really cool, really great experience seeing them accomplish some of these goals and to help them get there. Just helping them know what it takes.
I mean, really we were talking about, I didn’t know what I was getting myself into. It would’ve been so valuable for me and that’s one of the reasons I started this, was it would’ve been so valuable for me to kind of know a little bit of what was ahead, in terms of what life could be like at the airlines, and what I can look at as far as pay and how I can prepare myself better. You know, things obviously ended up working out but I saw so many students around me kind of just drop like flies because they hadn’t done their due diligence. I guess you can see the fire in them like I felt it inside myself. I would constantly just wonder why they weren’t going for it the way I felt like I knew I wanted to. And yeah, it’s not right for everybody and I’m not saying that that’s the way it should be but definitely I think there are a lot more people who want to be there and know they want to be there that should be there, and I think this is a great resource for them to be able to do that.
We’re developing relationships. We’re developing a network which has been huge in my career. Every single job that I’ve gotten in aviation that I was talking about has been because I knew someone, and it’s not because of how much my superior aviation skills or anything like that or my knowledge. Yes that helps, that definitely does need to be there, but it’s because I knew someone and they could give me a character reference and help me get a job where I need it to get. And so I think a lot of people don’t realize that that is a huge part. I tell a lot of the students that I mentor, their first day in their flight school, they’re essentially on an interview. Whether it feels like it or not, just think of it that way because that could potentially be their first aviation job, is instructing at their flight school. So keep that in mind that how they get through their flight training, how they conduct themselves through their flight training is definitely being noticed from the very start. So yeah, we’re building networks. We’re building these relationships and hopefully building a community so that people can just come here and get the answers that they need.
One of the things I like to say, there are so many aviation forums out there and they’ve been a great use to me. I mean, a lot of my friends use them. They have a lot of great information on there. However, sometimes that level of anonymity can be detrimental to helping people, right?
Chris: Yes. And I was looking at Facebook yesterday at some piece of news and then I was looking at the comments. I’m just like we are in the depths of despair as humanity. This is terrible. Like what are these people saying to each other? It’s like who spends the time to get on here and say these things? And yeah, you get a little bit of that in forums, I think to a lesser extent than you do on Facebook. So in what you’re saying, just to bring up a few thoughts that I had, first off, looking back at my personal story, it’s much the same as yours and really it’s the same as a lot of people. Yes, I like my air commissions, yes I like the X-Wing, yes I went flying here and went to an airshow there, and knew a pilot over here. But I really never connected where at least at some point it had to connect to the fact that I was no longer going to be a teenager anymore. I was going to have to grow into an adult and get a job and so I had to look for a job. And as I thought through that process in my mid-teens, somehow the pilot thing came up and it actually ended up happening just because I found out that my cousin was in aviation program at Utah State University so I’m like “I can be a pilot without going to the military?” and I knew I couldn’t go to the military because I had medical issues. So I’m like “Yeah. That just makes sense. Like I wouldn’t be a pilot?”
And so I started to go through that process, there was no one there to really help me. And certainly especially in those days when the internet wasn’t really around, there wasn’t a lot of information and thankfully there were enough people there and enough programs in place where I did get plugged in, I did gain the knowledge and gosh, I gained it quickly because I was just so into it, and really, that’s one of the great things about Sendaero and this mentoring thing, is it really speaks to what the aviation community is and that is simply a community. It’s a place where people come together at Oshkosh and Sun N’ Fun, and they help each other out when they see a career over here that they know someone is looking for, or they see some flight experience over that someone is looking for. This is one of the best communities I’ve ever been a part of, and granted I can’t say I’m a member of many, many communities or I’m a man of great knowledge or something like that, like aviation is definitely a community that I’ve chosen in the top 3 of what I have. But this is a great industry and a community where people just help each other out.
And so having a mechanism like Sendaero for any level of pilot, whether that be the 15-year-old Chris Palmer or 18-year-old Mike Rushforth, that want to fly and don’t really know how to get to the next step, or at least could be accelerated through those steps, or the guy that dropped out of flying and is looking to get back in, or the overachiever kid that’s 12 years old, I actually know a kid like this, 14 years old, and has already decided that he wants to fly for the Blue Angels and wants to fly in the Navy. And literally, in those circumstances, like that particular circumstance, I met that family, really good friends of mine now, I might that family at a flight simulation conference and them just saying that this son of theirs who was also there, this son wanted to go to the navy and fly for the Blue Angels, just him saying that, people just like swarmed. It’s like “How can I help this kid?” And it’s like there’s a vetting process and you’ve got to get a recommendation from a senator and like all these things, but people are just like coming together to make this happen and they don’t even hesitate. And so it’s really cool to see Sendaero come into play which I think will be definitely more geared toward the millennial-type thinkers, the kids that seek information from the internet and use it as a tool for their education. I think we’ll see a lot of that generation. But really in any level, it’s cool to see a mechanism for that.
And it’s the digital representation of a spirit that has always been there in the community anyway. So it’s really cool to kind of see it come together. Now, Mike if you will, in communicating with you and your team here and there as you guys were coming up with Sendaero, and I wasn’t that involved, but tell people how the name Sendaero came about and what the root of the name is because I think even that speaks to the spirit of the company.
Mike: Yeah. And like I had told you before, I spent a couple years down in Guatemala and I learned a couple languages down there, I learned Spanish and I learned this Mayan dialect called Q’eqchi’. I love languages, not really anymore but it was a hobby of mine. But Sendaero is actually a Spanish word and in Spanish it means path or pathway.
So when that kind of popped in to our brainstorming session, it just kind of stuck out to me, and even with the specific spelling that we came up with. But Sendaero, this is your pathway to aviation. We all have our own pathway, everyone can explain it. Everyone who’s a pilot, if you ask them, “How did you get there?” it’s so easy for everyone to just start that and start talking about how they got there because it’s such a, I love talking about my process about how I became an airline pilot and how I got all my ratings done and everything and that was my path to how I get here. Everyone has their own path and that’s what’s so cool, is that as these mentors meet with these young prospective aviators, they get to explain their path. And all of our mentors, they’re not here to give their opinions about certain things. They’re just there to guide them. They’re there to give them to advice. They’re not there to say “You need to go to this airline. This is where you belong.” No, because everyone has their own situation or their own set of challenges.
And so yeah, everyone just have their own pathway and that’s what I really like about the name Sendaero. It resonates with me in that way and if I’m going to back anything or start anything and back it, I’ve definitely got like the name, so it was big for me. And we kind of threw in the aviation part there with Sand-aero, so Sendaero spelled that way. A little bit of our own brand there.
Chris: Cool. I know that most people listen to podcast while they’re doing other things, chores, driving, that sort of thing, but if you guys want to see the website, just go to Sendaero.com while we’re having this conversation. So Mike, you’ve talked a little bit about the mentoring side of things. I’m super excited to see what comes of that. I know that you guys are off to the races and you’ve also committed to the scholarship which is really cool. It will be interesting to see what happens there as well.
There is another side of this which is also a very compelling and interesting side. I know that this is still under development to a certain extent but can you share with people what the other side of the coin is for Sendaero?
Mike: So like I explained earlier, I said we focus on aviation mentoring and pilot development and this is kind of the term that we’ve coined to deal with what we’re looking into doing and that’s with simulator training. So what we want to do is to take this whole community that we’ve been talking about, all these whole online community and utilize all these technology and use it to its potential. And that’s a big thing that you preach all the time and that I preach as well to other people, is this use of our home-based flight simulators. So Microsoft Flight Simulator, X-Plane, Prepar3d and all that. I’ve always just kind of felt like we’ve underutilized it. We’ve kind of “We’ll get on there, we’ll get all these cool airplanes, and we’ll get these cool paint jobs and stuff” but what about its use towards our real world training? And a lot of flight schools have adopted this. My flight school had just a set of… they had a computer room with all of these computers with joysticks and they had Microsoft Flight Simulator and they already help.
But it was kind of just one of those things that you went in and did. It wasn’t guided. And so what we want to do is to bring in flight instructors that will meet with you online and we can get into the cockpit of a Cessna-172 or an Archer or whatever airplane, and sit there with you online and actually take you through the paces and take you through a syllabus, and show you what it’s like to go through real flight lessons. A lot of these people, maybe they might be scared not knowing whether they can take all the knowledge that it requires, or they don’t have the stick and rudder skills and all that kind of stuff. You can think of it almost like a prep school but also for those who are already there maybe working on an instrument rating, a multiengine rating, we would like to kind of solidify and get syllabi for all of those different ratings to where you can come in and prepare online and go through with these instructors.
I just think it’s so invaluable and this is why we want to do this, is basically I’ve seen the use of the flight simulator in my career and it’s been invaluable because I’ve gotten jobs or at least I felt a lot more confident in my job interviews because of my utilization of flight simulators and how I prepared with them. So for example when I went to my interview at Express Jet, and so I think we kind of figured this out was that I went and did my interview in a 737 simulator in the Delta facility and that’s what Express Jet used for their interviews. And I think we figured out it was the same exact one that you and FlightChops used.
And so basically that’s a part of your interview and that’s a really big part of a lot of these airline interviews, is going in and doing a simulator ride. They don’t expect you to know all the systems on the aircraft, they don’t expect you to know all these things, but they do expect you to have basic instrument skills and they want you to demonstrate them there in front of them and so it can be quite nerve-wracking to do that.
So in preparation for this interview, I went and got an accurate version of the 737 and I went and flew all of the approaches and arrivals and departures and holds out of Atlanta, and I went in there, and I felt pretty comfortable. I still had to get used to kind of how the plane felt and some of the kinesthetic things about the actual simulator. However, one cool experience and by no means is this a bragging session because this didn’t happen because of my superior aviation skills. But the guy who was running the sim and the guy who was running the interview, he stopped the sim after I did my first hold, and he’s like “Hey guys, come back here.” I had a partner in there with me and I was like “Oh no. I just botched this and I’m done.” And he brought me back there, he shows me the computer screen and he says “I’ve never seen a hold look this perfect of a race track. This is best hold I’ve ever seen in the simulator.” And so I was like “Oh wow. That’s awesome. What a great compliment.” It was just really a great experience to see that all my preparation had paid off.
And I was talking to some of other candidates and everything and yeah, maybe I still would’ve gotten the job even without that or whatever but I felt that much more comfortable in there. And yeah, there’s no wind. There’s nothing there to kind of throw me off. It’s very straightforward however. Like I said, it’s that confidence and that comfort level when you’re there that can make all the difference in getting the job or not.
Chris: Yeah. There’s this stigma in the flight training community as a whole, I think more in the general aviation side and I think maybe even more part 61 than part 141 where it’s like if a kid comes in that has flown flight simulator for thousands of hours, all these big red flags going off, and there are some good reasons to have those red flags go off. But I think that as a community, we need to start to reject that notion because this is the day and age we are in. Computers are here to stay. I’m sorry if you think they’re a fad, but computers are here to stay. Simulators are incredibly useful.
You see that through not only the robust home flight simulator community with Microsoft Flight Simulator, Prepar3d, this is kind of a hobbyist community, and some people would be offended if I call it a hobbyist community but it is. And then, you see the professional community with the surgeons if you will of Redbird and those types of simulators making it into almost every flight school. Flight simulation is here to stay and it is a tool that we can use to a very high extent, and it all depends on how you approach the simulator. I’m on a soapbox a little bit here, I understand that I’m going to need the connection. But these things are here to stay, they’re not going anywhere. And so for something like Sendaero to take that tool and say “Okay, we’ve got Johnny here that is in Massachusetts and he needs an instructor. This is his path. We have an instructor in New Mexico and our instructor in New Mexico is going to get in a virtual cockpit with Johnny and they are going to fly together and they are going to learn. Johnny isn’t just going to go and do this on his own in the simulator for a hobby. He is actually using the simulator, he is learning real procedures, and he’s doing well at it and he’s improving and here’s a syllabus and here are his accomplishments or whatever.
So it’s a very compelling notion that it almost attacks that original resistance to a kid using a flight simulator. Not that that’s really what it’s meant to be. What it’s meant to be is just another great tool for someone to be flying. And honestly, I sit on the ground a whole heck of a lot more than I do flying and so to be able to utilize that ground time and a simulator and still be in the mindset of flying and improving those skills without actually burning Jet-A or 100 low lead is a very, very good thing especially when you’re talking about doing it alongside an instructor. It’s a cool concept. And I even think of what the possibilities would be of a foreign person.
So someone that’s a young guy that’s living in Europe, he speaks English well, he wants to come to the States, he wants to get his ratings and stuff. He hooks up with an instructor from the States and they learn FAA procedures, he comes to the States, just knocks everything out, knocks it out of the park.
Mike: And that’s actually something that we’ve been looking into because a lot of these foreign pilots, they are required to learn English. The IKO standard is that English is the language of aviation like or not and so they have to learn this, and they have to go through their own classes down there and everything. So why not bring it together, utilize the internet and the computers we have and we can take them in there and actually get on with real trained air traffic controllers. You’ve had Keith Smith from PilotEdge on your podcast, and I am a huge believer in PilotEdge and in language training through these means.
Chris: And not only language training but just communications training. I mean, the list goes on. Just from a hobbyist perspective, and really I wish both communities would connect more, but just from a hobbyist perspective, Orbx just release their Southern California scenery. So now you’ve got PilotEdge which is an incredible, realistic ATC online network that you can plug into and people plug in with CAE simulators that are millions of dollars. So you’ve got that component and then you’ve got the scenery from Orbx which is very realistic. You’ve got a powerful simulator, good-looking aircraft. And a shout-out to my last episode where we talk to Daniel Church about the Oculus Rift, I have to tell you, the Oculus Rift is a game-changer.
And so we’re coming into this new age of simulation where we’re no longer connected by the bounds as far as communications of sitting next to an instructor, of being on an actual frequency with an air traffic controller. We can do so many things online now, it’s incredibly realistic, it’s so immersive, and you and I can look into the future and we can say “What is that going to mean for the future pilots, the next generation of pilots?” And I would be hard-pressed to change my mind from it just being an incredible revolution that we’re going through right now. I mean, things have come to fruition where it’s just awesome and very good timing because I thinks Sendaero is going to be a part of that.
Mike: Yeah. And everything that we’ve been talking, I mean I wish I could just hit all the points that have ever gone through my head about this topic because everything that you say, I just want to say amen, amen, amen to this because it’s amazing stuff. As pilots, we bring in a lot of different disciplines, right? I mean we study weather. It’s a lot of science involved in what we do. We learn FAA regulations so it’s a lot of legal stuff. In a sense, we’re amateurs in a lot of these different areas. So I like to take that one step further and when I’m thinking about a lot of stuff with Sendaero and how to train people, I’ve read a lot of books by navy seals and I’m really impressed and I’d probably never could’ve been one but I’m just amazed that there are people out there who subject themselves to that kind of stuff and I just think they’re amazing human beings.
There’s one guy in particular, Brandon Webb, and he wrote a book called The Red Circle. He actually developed the sniper school for the navy. And so he talks about training and he talks about his fanaticism in training. He says “The key to all the training that they do is the realism. And so you’re bringing in a lot of these different areas that I’ve thought about like how does the Oculus Rift play in the future of our training and I just finished listening to your interview with Daniel Church yesterday in fact and how real, I’ve never used one yet but I’m just so intrigued by it, how that will just step up the realism and you guys talked about workflow and I’m a huge believer in the workflow, even just on your computer. Like let’s say you use an iPad in the airplane and you have it on a certain said, you have it on the left side, put it on the left side when you’re sitting at your computer. Just very simple things like that that you can bring in from your cockpit into your home computer and your home simulator that will help you in the actual airplane.
One other cool thing from this particular book was he talks about mental management. So you probably talk to your listeners about chairflying a little bit where you’ll sit in a chair and you’ll close your eyes and you’ll sit there and you’ll actually pretend like you’re going through your procedures, and you’ll go through your checklist, and you’ll go through a flight, but just sitting in chair, and so that’s invaluable. I mean, you don’t pay any money to sit in a chair, to visualize yourself going through this stuff.
There is actually a story that he teaches his snipers and basically this guy, Jack Sands, he was a pilot over Vietnam who got shot down, and he got shot down and he got captured by the Vietnamese. And he was there for seven years in captivity. So he basically talks about how he got through that situation, was through his visualization techniques. And what he would do was sit there and just how he survived was he would sit there and he would just go through an entire game of golf everyday through 18 holes in his mind. Step by step, just everything from like how he swung the golf club and hit the ball, and he played the perfect game everytime which is so cool. And he did it everyday for seven years.
Before he went to war and got shot down, he would shot maybe a hundred which is like very average, maybe even below average in a golf game. And when he got home, he went and played golf again after he got released and everything. And this is like, these people took these to their graves, I mean these people who witnessed it, but he shot a 74 which I think is right around or below par. I mean, it’s just amazing the visualization. And I maybe it’s a stretch but the way that we visualize what we do in the cockpit, we don’t even have to visualize it. It’s here on our computer screens. It’s the best way of chairflying. It’s just right there for us. So it’s amazing that we have and it’s so relatively inexpensive, it’s a very inexpensive way to do this.
So people who I have talked to, I’ve talked to the kid’s parents, they’re thinking about getting their kid a simulator, whatever, and I’d just say “This is how much a simulator cost. It’s going to be this much for your first hour with an instructor in an airplane.” That’s a pretty big investment. So why not just go through a lot of these procedures and go through a lot of this experience on the computer, and they are pretty much sold right there because the cost-savings is just so amazing. And you can’t overprepare really. You just can’t overprepare in this kind of stuff because the stuff that I go do everyday at work, all the preparation I’ve done just benefits me everyday.
Chris: Yeah. It’s so true. I mean, I just think of all the time wasted on the ground, again coming back to that, those things that could be improved upon in a simulator. And particularly talking about a home-based simulator where you have unlimited access to it. I mean, obviously the usefulness of a Redbird or an airline simulator is proven. That’s something that the FAA even stands behind a lot of people stand behind, but the home-based simulator where someone can just, without limit, just use it and use it and use it and work on things. And I have to caution, work on things in a realistic manner. I mean, don’t just get in and slam the throttles forward and try to figure things out. There are some benefits to doing that, I definitely think there are, and I think there are some benefits to trying to land a 777 with a 100-knot headwind on a little dirt strip. I feel like to a certain extent I learn from some of those things, but approaching the simulator with some seriousness.
And there are out there now to do that. I mean, Sendaero is one of them, PilotEdge is another. There are plenty of scenery packages out there. I can talk about the hardware, I can talk about so many different things, the weather programs. I can talk about so many different things. Even being able to connect up your iPhone or your iPad to the simulator with ForeFlight which is a real app that pilots use at least in general aviation, that real pilots use to fly.
Mike: And at the airlines too for that matter.
Chris: Yeah. In fact, I think your airline, does your airline use it?
Mike: So they had just stopped using it right when I got into unfortunately.
Chris: Yeah, I heard that they were using it for a while and we’re being coy about not saying your airline name by the way, we’re not trying to be annoying. Some legal reasons there. So let’s start to wrap up the show here. Tell me how as a brand new user of Sendaero, what the process is. So I just type in www.sendaero.com into my URL bar. What’s going to happen now?
Mike: So you’re going to go onto Sendaero.com and you can go on there and just check out all the different pages that we have as far as information goes. We have frequently asked questions. We have a little bit of thing about me and my history. And then we have an enroll button and its’ actually in a little rectangle. And you can click on that and there are two different options there. Right now, the one that’s probably only available is the mentoring. If you go ahead and just go sign up on that, it’s a very simple form. All it’s going to ask you I think is your email, your name, and do you have any real flight experience and what are your goals in aviation. Very, very simple. What that’s going to do is then generate an email to you and it’s going to give you a link that will give you access to our Discord server, and that’s kind of the portal to where our community lies and that’s within that, our voice over at P client. If you here of all these kids playing games and stuff like that and they’re able to talk online, this is where we hang out, is in this Discord server.
Chris: But let me differentiate. A very professional space. I don’t want Xbox users like swarming to this.
Mike: Yeah. That’s a good point. Very good point. Even businesses use this for their business meeting. It’s a tool for people to come together and meet, and it’s a centralized location. I want it to be a place where people just feel comfortable to come in and ask a question and hang out. Even if they’re not taking part in the mentoring and not they’re not taking part in the pilot development and the simulator things, it’s just somewhere they can come and get some questions answered, and hopefully they’re warmly welcomed. That’s our big thing. All of our mentors are handpicked. We’re not just going and picking out any pilot. We’re looking for people with the right personalities and the right attitude. That’s huge. That’s been a huge focus for us.
Chris: So I signed up for it, I get in there, what happens then? I get lined up with a mentor or I get many mentors or…
Mike: So basically this is one of the cool things about aviation is when you get an instructor in real life, it’s one on one. I mean it is a one on one process. Someone gets there and gets into the airplane with you and it’s all about you and training you, and that’s exactly what this mentoring is, is it’s a one on one experience and we do it online. So basically what we do is there is a matching process and so according to this form that you filled out, you’ll get an email and then according to that form that you filled out, I’ll look for someone and we’ll look for someone that matches the goals that you’ve put in there. So let’s say you want to become an airline pilot and you know the airline that you want to go to, we’ll look for someone specifically for your needs. And so we have quite a vast resource of people who are, they are chumping at the bits to do it. So yeah. And so we’ll match you up with someone, we’ll send you an email and we’ll say “Hey, this is your mentor.” And a few little other processes in there where you got to sign a little mentoring agreement which is a very simple formality. The mentor and the student will both sign in. It’s just a way to kind of set some expectations as to what the mentorship will be and what’s expected of each one of you. Like I said, it last for two months at no cost.
And that’s the big thing, is as we’ve been developing this, is I’ve wanted this to be available very easily and to those who don’t have the resources to be able to take part in it, not all of us have the money to give, and then for those who do have some money to give, they can put into this great cause to helping someone, and help supplement their flight training.
Chris: Great. Great. So, we talked earlier about your experience of being at DFW Airport for 36 hours and you told your friend “This is awesome. I should just learn to fly” and then you just went and did it. So this is one of those situations guys. If you’re listening to this show and you haven’t taken those steps yet or you’re trying to work through the details, you’re wanting a little more help. Everyone can use a little more help, even me. Actually personally and professionally, I’ve been reaching out to some more mentors recently for this very reason, not necessarily for flight training but if you are ready to take that step or you’re not even sure if you’re ready to take that step, take this step with Mike. Head over to Sendaero. Jump on, hit that enroll button, and just see what it’s like and get started and get lined up with a mentor and start to have those conversations. Share your passion in a place where it will be honored and where someone can help you move along. That’s my final word. Mike, do you have anything else to add?
Mike: Yeah. There’s so much that I would like to talk about but it could take a couple days. But yeah, we’re here to help you. There is a lot of us here who do this for… I basically have done this, I kind of go by this code is that, “That which one willingly shares he keeps, while that which he selfishly keeps he loses,” and this was kind of my whole thing with starting Sendaero, was that I got to the airlines and I just kind of gotten the groove of flying airplanes everyday and I love it, don’t get me wrong, but there was something missing for me, and so I realize that when I stop instructing, I stop teaching. I realized I essentially just stopped sharing aviation altogether. And so this is my opportunity to share it and a lot of others who I fly with and a lot of my friends who are pilots and a lot of people I’ve talked to, they feel the same way and they just want to be able to talk about it with other people because it’s such a part of us, it runs in our blood. You know that Chris, it runs deep. So this is opportunity for us to help the next generation of pilots and to really tailor that to each one of you.
Chris: Awesome. Love it. Alright, best of luck, safe flying, and we’ll catch you on the flipside. Thanks for joining us Mike.
Mike: Yeah. Thank you Chris. Appreciate it.
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For more information on Angle of Attack simulation training videos for FSX, X-Plane and more, go to www.flyaoamedia.com. If you are looking for a professional aviation training video services and other media, inquire at www.angleofattackpro.com. Now, for the final release clearance, back to Chris Palmer.
Chris: Alright, a huge thanks goes out to Mike for joining us on this episode of AviatorCast. If you guys feel that you can benefit from Sendaero and its mentoring program, I encourage you guys to go sign up. I know that these guys are passionate about what they’re doing, and I’m really excited to see where this stuff goes. So don’t hesitate, take that first step. Go sign up at Sendaero.com and see what it’s all about.
So thank you again for joining us on this episode of AviatorCast. We couldn’t do this without our wonderful team. They do a great job, they keep this company running. Angle of Attack is a media production company so we do specialize in flight training video and online learning. And so we have a lot of things going on behind the scenes that take a lot of effort, a lot of time, and a lot of resources to make happen, and this is just one of those fun things that the get to do to give back to the community and that is AviatorCast, so a big thanks goes out to the crew for all they do to make AviatorCast possible. And thank you to do, the listeners, I could not do this without you, I really appreciate your encouragement, I really appreciate your reviews. I give this t-shirts out when you guys review online as a token of my appreciation. So I hope to get rid of all of them and print another round. So really excited to have you guys on board. I wish you all the best in your flying endeavors. I hope that you keep reaching for your dreams, you keep flying, and I will endeavor to do the same.
So join us next week, we’ll have another great episode lined up. Until next time, throttle on![/transcript]